Daughter Forced to have an Abortion (4 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/16/2002 8:56 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 31)  
 
  408.1  
 
Should This be allowed in America, Today?

David

Subject:   "I Don't Have a Choice" 
Source:   Weekly Standard; July 15, 2002

"I Don't Have a Choice" 
by Lee Bockhorn
           
[Pro-Life Infonet Note:  Lee Bockhorn is associate editor at The Weekly 
Standard.]

Last Sunday, the New York Times Magazine published a remarkably chilling 
essay entitled "Family Planning." Penned by an anonymous father--let's call 
him Mr. X--it described his family's efforts to convince his pregnant 
15-year-old daughter, against her own better instincts, to have an abortion. 

Doubtless, the Times published it as a shining example of how families should 
persuade pregnant teens that abortion is preferable to bringing an "unwanted" 
child into the world. But in many respects, the essay actually serves as a 
damning rebuttal of arguments commonly made by true believers in 
abortion-on-demand. 

According to Mr. X, his younger daughter has been a challenge for many years. 
Unlike his well-behaved eldest daughter, the young one "smokes cigarettes and 
marijuana and doesn't care who knows," among other things. Mr. X hypothesizes 
that this behavior is a response to some sort of identity crisis--in contrast 
to the goody-two-shoes older daughter, the 15-year-old "feels she has to 
carve out her own identity by doing what she pleases." 

After learning she was pregnant, the girl said she wanted to keep the child, 
and promised she would be a good mother. In response to this, Mr. X and his 
wife "freaked, and not just because of our dashed aspirations for this girl. 
We were too old to want to raise another baby--and we felt sure the raising 
would fall to us." 

The belligerent selfishness of this statement is nothing less than 
breathtaking. Upon hearing that their daughter, faced with the difficult 
circumstance of a teenage pregnancy, nevertheless courageously desired to 
raise her child, Mr. and Mrs. X couldn't bear to think about how to help her 
cope with the inevitable challenges ahead. Instead, they worried about what a 
royal pain in the ass the child would be for them. As Mr. X whines later in 
the essay, "We felt we had been sentenced to 18 years of hard labor." 

Faced with this, then, as Mr. X goes on to describe, the family staged an 
"intervention," inviting 15 female relatives and friends to the house to 
exhort the girl to have an abortion. Having still failed to change her mind, 
Mr. and Mrs. X then took her to a counseling session at Planned Parenthood. 
When they returned home, the parents asked the daughter what she was going to 
do. "I don't have a choice," she replied. She went on to have the abortion. 

With those five simple words, "I don't have a choice," "Family Planning" 
effectively exposes the sham of "women's autonomy" as an argument for 
unfettered abortion on demand. Mr. X sniffs at the parental consent laws of 
his "Bible-belt state," presumably because they infringe upon such 
autonomy--the ability of any woman, even a minor, to make her own decision 
about bringing a child into the world. But in fact, his real concern is not 
to protect such autonomy; otherwise, why expend so much effort convincing the 
girl that keeping the baby will place such an undue burden on all those 
around her? When the woman's autonomous choice proves inconvenient for 
others, suddenly their reservations demand recognition. Earlier, Mr. X stated 
with resignation that he no longer grounded his daughter to stop her 
pot-smoking, because she had realized that "there was no way we could 
forcibly make her do anything she didn't want to do." But this doubt about 
his parental ability (and obligation) to alter his daughter's bad choices 
flew out the window when it became necessary to force her to abandon her 
silly desire to have her baby. 

After the abortion, Mr. X tells us, "I realized later that I would have more 
to worry about if she had easily and immediately decided on an abortion. 
Ultimately, she did, but she struggled with her decision, and I hope she made 
the right one." 

It's difficult to know where to begin parsing these two sentences. First, 
they merely regurgitate the argument feminist author Naomi Wolf made some 
years ago: namely, that abortion is acceptable, provided that women who have 
abortions experience some vaguely defined type of contrition, regret, 
remorse, what have you--in other words, that they at least acknowledge they 
are taking a life. 

But what's more astonishing is the father's statement, regarding his 
daughter's "decision," that he "hope[s] she made the right one" (if something 
resulting from such familial browbeating can truly be called a "decision"). 
Whence came such sudden moral uncertainty, Mr. X? By all the criteria he has 
presented in the article, of course she made the right decision. After all, 
she's not sentencing her poor parents to "18 years of hard labor." 

The father concludes by telling us that he still has hope for this daughter; 
that one day, the good little girl he once knew, who as a 4-year-old held her 
best friend's hand until the very end as she died of cancer, will one day 
return. "I know that person is in there, and someday, when the fever [of 
adolescence] breaks, I pray that I'll see her again." If he wasn't so morally 
blind, Mr. X would have realized that he had already seen her again. The girl 
who wanted to raise her baby and promised to be a good mother was a person 
who-- apparently for the first time in many years--had recognized that some 
things are more important than just living for the sake of one's own pleasure 
or convenience; that sometimes our duties to others transcend the need to 
"carve out an identity" by "doing what one pleases." Too bad, both for her 
and the child she will now never know, that her parents haven't yet learned 
that lesson themselves.

--
You can help women make positive, life-affirming choices when confronting an 
unexpected pregnancy. Please provide a link on your web site to Pregnancy 
Centers Online at http://www.pregnancycenters.org


--------------------
From:  The Pro-Life Infonet http://www.prolifeinfo.org 

Reply-To:  Steven Ertelt infonet@prolifeinfo.org




David A. ...[Message truncated] 



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Edited 7/16/2002 12:16:47 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/17/2002 1:01 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 31)  
 
  408.2 in reply to 408.1  
 
I am so sorry for that girl. I am most sure that she will hate her father...as well as her Father in heaven...even more now. Her dad 'exasperated' her, as he most likely did to begin with if he is as shallow and unfeeling as these words make him out to be. :(
Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  LINDSAYGRIFF   7/18/2002 8:27 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 31)  
 
  408.3 in reply to 408.1  
 
The girl did have a choice: she could have packed her bags and left home. 
She has no right to expect her parents to take on this burden. 

The father was acting in the best interests of the entire family, as is his right to do. 

 
  
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  From:  LINDSAYGRIFF   7/18/2002 8:29 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    (4 of 31)  
 
  408.4 in reply to 408.2  
 
Doesn't the Bible teach that a bastard will never enter the kingdom of heaven, for 10 generations after. 
That's not much to look forward to - being born only to know you are already doomed.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/18/2002 9:48 am  
To:  LINDSAYGRIFF unread  (5 of 31)  
 
  408.5 in reply to 408.4  
 
Hi,

 

You are  wrong on both accounts.

 

The Bible Dosent say that a bastard cant enter the kingdom of heaven. In the Jewish law a child born out of wedlock would  not be in fellowship but specifically they would not hold office i.e. King or Priesthood for 10 generations.

 

Deuteronomy 23:2

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

 

Example:

 

Genesis 38:1-30 Judah and Tamar had  twins Pharez and Zarah out of wedlock. It wasnt until 10 Generations from Pharez that the Tribe of Judah had a King and that King was King David.

 

Ruth 4:18-22

Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,

And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,

And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,

And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

 

Also you are making assumptions about the girl that the article isnt clear on you dont know that she would have stayed at home so you are just assuming that you know their situation. 

 

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Zebra30   7/18/2002 11:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (6 of 31)  
 
  408.6 in reply to 408.1  
 
I could have predicted this scenario a long time ago. For a long time I've thought that the phrase "pro-choice" was little more than a cleverly thought-up catchphrase or buzz-word that had little or no relevence to the truth. In no way am I condoning this young lady's reckless behavior, but she should have at least been able to count on her own parents to see her through even as they were without a doubt disappointed in her behavior. But all I heard about throughout this whole article is how this would affect THEM. All I heard about was how this was going to make THEM uncomfortable. How this was going to make it seem as though THEY were sentenced to 18 years of hard labor. I didn't hear too much about their young daughter. I shouldn't be too surprised if that young lady goes out and becomes pregnant again just so she could replace the baby that she had to abort. We both know that abortion carries long-term psychological effects whether they are acknowledged or not. Yes, the parents should have made sure that the girl knew what she was getting into. They should have made sure that she took care of the baby. But to force an abortion? No. That wasn't the answer. I noticed something else, too. One party has been missing from this whole article: the baby's father. It's strange how we like to eliminate fathers from the abortion equation. It makes it look as though women do the whole thing themselves. And no, Mr.X, she didn't make the "right" decision. The fact that you would even ask that question shows that you know, at least on some level that this wasn't the best decision for your daughter. I'd like to see how she's doing in about 5 or so years down the line. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/18/2002 11:59 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (7 of 31)  
 
  408.7 in reply to 408.6  
 
Hi Zebra30,

 

What was really chilling to me about the article is here is this guy who is putting so much effort into the masterminding of the killing of his own grandchild.

 

I wonder how this man will feel in the years to come as he sits though holidays and other occasions knowing that God was trying to bless him with a grandchild yet now his lap and his room are empty.

 

Psalms 127:3-5 

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Zebra30   7/19/2002 12:07 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (8 of 31)  
 
  408.8 in reply to 408.7  
 
I dunno. Maybe he'll settle for a puppy instead. 
  
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  From:  123four   7/19/2002 8:49 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (9 of 31)  
 
  408.9 in reply to 408.6  
 
Trying to catch up here on the new posts. Well, I think I have posted here before that I am against abortion ....no matter what the excuse is. 
On Mr.X, I might tell the other side of the coin, actually a little more than that. My own family member had a wayward daughter. She was always a little 'out there' you know. She had a baby when she was 16 as she was pregant at age 15. Now, her parents accepted her and the baby...no questions asked...and without obligation. They were a Christian couple. Now, I don't know if you have thought about it, but 
by the time a couple is between 50 and 60 and they take on new babies, 
they could be close to 80 when the child is out of high school and even 84 or 85 when the child is out of college. So, yes, it would be difficult. Well, back to the story. The girl had this first baby and by the time she was 22, she had a total of 3 babies, moved in 2 boyfriends, married one of them. All the while this dear couple was abused to the very limits a human should be. How would this be? This was their beloved daughter? I would think she knew full well she could hold their feet to the fire for all of these years, and she did just exactly that. In the end they raised the 3 kids and as I said the daughter lived there too. The man was working 2 jobs when he was 70 and it was hell on earth for the mother, at her age taking care of all of these babies, including all of the others in and out. 
Yes, I do think the parents should be considered. I think God expects parents to be honored and loved and respected. 

To this very day, the mother of these 3 is out in the world. She is resentful and feels her parents 'never did anything for her'. The 
parents who gave their life for this unappreciative girl have gone on to be with God...and for that I am grateful to God for. This daughter makes no bones that she had 3 abortions as well as these 3 children. 

If the parents had known then when they grew to learn, I think they would have insisted that this daughter give her child up for adoption. This girl seemed to not have a mother instinct. She had no nurturing ability and paid no more attention to her children than if they were a stranger's children. 

It's a hard call for parents to make. There are so many Christian churches who have adoption centers and children's homes, that there is no reason for not finding a good home for the child. 

This daughter learned early on that she could threaten to take the children and get whatever it was she was wanting at the time from her parents. She used the children against them. It was a horrer story, 
and is being done every day of the week. It's like the more these women are helped, the more they hate. So there are always 2 sides to all coins. 

Maybe the thing to do here is to volunteer to adopt some of these babies and raise them for that 20 years. Some are taking whole families of children and loving it. I took 2 myself. But it is hard 
when the mother knows who you are, as she always resents you, so it 
seems best to me that if you are going to raise any, that you get 
those children whose mother you do not know. 

I would like to encourage those who are concerned about these teen age mothers and fathers to adopt these babies. If each of us took just 1, then that would be a great help to these parents who can't take them all due to ill health and age, and inability to support a large family after age 60 or 70. It makes it a little hard for them. 
The 2 children I took , a brother and sister from the same family, 
were a delight, and real blessing to us, and I do not regret doing it at all. 



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Edited 7/20/2002 12:04:55 AM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   7/20/2002 12:22 am  
To:  123four   (10 of 31)  
 
  408.10 in reply to 408.9  
 
Well, that does put a whole new spin on things, but I still don't think that killing the child is the answer, either. It may be that these kids, deprived as they are of motherly affection and example could turn out to be some of the most outstanding citizens America has ever produced. Stranger things have happened, you know. As for that self-centered excuse of a daughter that you mentioned, perhaps when the men are no longer coming around and she is forced to find other ways of supporting herself will she remember what was done for her and maybe then she will began to appreciate mom and dad. And she may begin to turn her life around and realize that there is more to life than partying and running around. That's my 2 cents worth. 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/20/2002 7:53 am  
To:  123four   (11 of 31)  
 
  408.11 in reply to 408.9  
 
Insisting, forcing young women (who have not hurt their children)into placing their own children into adoption is not a cure all and only a tad above, forcing a young women to have an abortion. 
God is still the author and creator of all life. (even in teenage women) It is not a mistake or error who becomes pregnant. 
Obviously, the young mother you cited as an example hasn't grown in grace the way the Lord would wish but unless the children are in imminent danger, it is the mother's high calling to parent them. I assure your insisting and demanding any women to unvoluntarily adopt out her children doesn't solve anything AND IN ACTUALITY CREATES a different set of irreversable problems, ever present to both mother and child. 
Motherhood is a high calling and God does not make mistakes about what child is born to whom....people make mistakes but God is able to help (us) them in it. Removing infants from first time mothers is not the easy , healthy answer you make it seem. 

Mothers need to learn to mother...abortion and it's first cousin adoption, are no panaceas, no matter how slickly presented. 

Linda 



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Edited 7/20/2002 1:39:00 PM ET by HopeFloats (RACHELSCHILD) 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/20/2002 9:57 am  
To:  LINDSAYGRIFF unread  (12 of 31)  
 
  408.12 in reply to 408.4  
 
I don't believe so, no. 
Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    7/20/2002 10:02 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (13 of 31)  
 
  408.13 in reply to 408.11  
 
amen to your post. God does not make mistakes. :)
Amy

Speaking the Truth in Love 
 
  
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  From:  123four   7/20/2002 1:00 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   (14 of 31)  
 
  408.14 in reply to 408.11  
 
YOU SAID: Insisting, forcing young women (who have not hurt their children)into placing their own children into adoption is not a cure all and only a tad above, forcing a young women to have an abortion. 
In the post you were addressing, I in no way, at any time in the post suggested that any pregnant girl be 'forced' into adopting of a child. Neither did I say that adoption is a 'cure all' as you say. 

I was talking about one particular situation, where elderly parents 
were forced to raise 3 children from their daughter. If you go back and read the post, you will see that I said 'if the parents had known' the outcome of this and that 2 more children were on the way for them to raise, I said he probably would have thought adoption 
best answer for this girl who never loved nor wanted a single child she had. 

BTW, grandparents raising children for their own children is not a 
'CURE ALL', to use your phrase, as we are looking at the abilities, financially and physically, of the grandparents as well as the children, and the children of the children. 

I wonder if you are considering what it is like for 60 - 80 year old parents to raise and support numerous children. Thjere are people who would love to provide of home and a family of younger parents for these unwanted children. If you have ever worked in social work, you will notice immediately that a lot of these elderly grandparents do die or become disabled before the children are grown and then once again they are without parents and 'forced' into the foster child 
arena unless another member of the family can take them. Not everyone is in good health or strong enough to raise 3 or 4 kids after they are 60. This happens all too often. 

I also gave a good option, which I took, of raising some of these kids! I raised 2 that were children of an unloving mother, who had been neglected and unwanted. They were a great blessing to me, but I don't know if it would have been the same, were I 65 or 75 years of age. All things must be considered. 

This elderly couple of this girl I was talking about in the former post were too old to be raising children and it was too hard on them physically and financially, was part of my reasoning. As I told you in the earlier post, this girl I was talking about brought that first child and 2 more for the parents to raise. It's hard to face these facts..of the responsibility only of the elderly grandparents to raise the children. Maybe God placess responsibility on those of us who are physically, financially, able to raise these unwanted children. Aren't we all to do what we can? 





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Edited 7/20/2002 4:07:42 PM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/20/2002 1:38 pm  
To:  123four   (15 of 31)  
 
  408.15 in reply to 408.14  
 

If this young mother did not love or want any of her children why did she have them? I suspect you may not like her lifestyle and that her parenting may be less then perfect but most women DO love their children. (it is a God given instinct) 
NOBODY makes the perfect parent. Not age or ethnic group or education or heritage or even being a 'Christian" there are good and bad parenting in all groups of humans. And, certainly half , more then half of the world raises children in poverty. 

Children are a HERITAGE from the Lord (recognized or not) and encouraging families to ship out their own children (planned or not) is no good answer. 

Yes, it would be hard for the elderly grandparent to raise a young child but most grandparents in these circumstances are not solely rasing these children. 

Just as the original post about abortion stated many grandparents do not want to be "tied down" with their chikdren's 'errors or mistakes". And these sren't old grandparents ..they are young ones. I don't know your friends but a grandparent raising a grandchild while in their 60'70's would have given birth themselves in their forties....which is very unusual! 

Neglected or abused children are not the same as children born to single, unwed mothers. neglected and abused children can be found in all families..not just the young. It is a very grievous thing to suggest to any mother she give up her child to others just because she is young and older folk have "more to offer." God may well be offering her and her child the very best for them...just as they are! It is NO SMALL issue to give away the children God has given to someone and suggest they'd be better off outside their own family...makes us little god makers ourselves. 

Linda 
 
  
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  From:  CRAW (FREDCDOBBS99)   7/24/2002 6:50 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 31)  
 
  408.16 in reply to 408.1  
 
What hogwash! A 15 year old child needs school much more than a bassinet. Her parents were correct in advising abortion. What makes you think a drug using disobedient immature 15 yr old will suddenly magically turn into a responsible loving mother. 
Then you claim the parents are selfish because they may end up with the responsibility of raising the child, while the 15 yr old goes on her merry way.!! How is this irresponsible?? How does not wanting to become saddled with an irresponsible daughters child become selfish?? Get your priorities straight please! 


PRO CHOICE PRO AMERICA PRO WOMAN ANTI SUPERSTITION 
  
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  From:  CRAW (FREDCDOBBS99)   7/24/2002 6:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (17 of 31)  
 
  408.17 in reply to 408.7  
 
Baloney, if any god was wanting a "child" to bless a family with another child, the "god" could have seen that it happened. He didn't she didn't, end of scenario. Period. 
Bible quotes are just opinion---opinion of ancient fear driven superstitious old goatherders. Try getting into the 21st century. 

CRAW 


PRO CHOICE PRO AMERICA PRO WOMAN ANTI SUPERSTITION 
  
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  From:  Arcana Obscura (GyrFalcon33)   7/24/2002 10:05 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (18 of 31)  
 
  408.18 in reply to 408.1  
 
If this child was really that out of control, what possible good could come about in forcing her to become a parent? The damage to her body, (as it is still developing) not withstanding, this girl's maturity level leaves a lot to be desired. 
Delivering a baby at that young an age more than likely make future pregnancies and delieveries problematict to say the least. 

Her 'parenting' skills would, therefore be highly suspect and the one who would suffer the most would be the baby. 

It's a sad thing to see children having children.
 
  
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  From:  Ancient Order of Dogs (Alegria42)    7/25/2002 7:46 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 31)  
 
  408.19 in reply to 408.1  
 
I read research at one time that indicated the psychological impact of abortion occuring on the average of ten to fifteen years following an abortion.

Among the chief reasons for psychological damage was the feeling or belief they were coerced into having an abortion. Clearly this case is representative of instances of coercion or intimidation.

Disgraceful that he has cultivated an image of a good and bad daughter. Disgraceful he would reinforce such a notion in his daughter.

How are children to suceed when parents hold such low expectations?

  

Armchair Warriors 
Recent Discussions 
    Laws Based on a Lie 
    Odd News Moved 
    Non-Violent Resistance 
    Perfectionism and Unlimited Guilt 
    The Question of Judicial Representation 

 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/25/2002 8:04 pm  
To:  Ancient Order of Dogs (Alegria42)    (20 of 31)  
 
  408.20 in reply to 408.19  
 
Hi Alegria42,

 

Good observations!

 

Thanks for your insights.

 

 

It is interesting that the American culture  family seems to be one of the least affirming among the worlds cultures. I think that it is a devastating effect on our families and Nation that we dont encourage and build up one another.

 

God Bless you,

David



David A. Brown
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From:  Willow (WillowsFree)   7/29/2002 7:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 31)  
 
  408.21 in reply to 408.1  
 
Hi David, 
I caught your promo on this and I can't express how sad I am for this girl. :( I'm praying for her. Thank you for posting this article. 

God bless




 
OutOfDarkness
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/29/2002 12:00 pm  
To:  Willow (WillowsFree)   (22 of 31)  
 
  408.22 in reply to 408.21  
 
Hi Willow,

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

I have already had the pleasure of visiting your forum.

 

I just tried to visit your forum again by the link on your signature and was unable to. Your link might need the new delphi name it is something like  http://forums.delphiforums.com/YOURFORUM/

 

My words would not even be adequate to express my joy and relief that you are Worshiping God. If there is anything I can do to assist and encourage you  please let me know.

 

God Bless you,

Your Brother in Jesus,

David



David A. Brown
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  From:  Willow (WillowsFree)   7/30/2002 7:16 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 31)  
 
  408.23 in reply to 408.22  
 
Thank you David. I am happy to be living in the truth. God has been good! Thanks for letting me know about my SIG. I'll work on that. If you or anyone else would like to join me and help kick off the grand opening of my new forum it is at Webtag: Expagan. You can access both of my forums through my profile for now. My CO-Mod is currently away. Her Mother is ill. So I'm trying to finish up our website now. In the meantime, everyone is welcome to come share their testimoney and post. 
God bless David




 
OutOfDarkness
 
  
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  From:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   7/31/2002 3:31 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (24 of 31)  
 
  408.24 in reply to 408.1  
 
This is such a shame.  It breaks my heart that many parents would rather their teen child have an abortion then to be supportive of their decision to be a parent.  However, the girl obviously smokes, and uses drugs ... it's quite possible that all of the "counseling" she had included stats on drug babies, and babies of smokers.  I care for a 3 year old who was born to parents that both smoked pot, drank alcohol, and other drugs - the child only learned to walk last year and has yet to utter a sound, even the child's cries are silent.  Would he be better off not being born?  No, because he wouldn't have me to work with him - on the other hand he's a prime example that the PP folks would use as an example to encourage abortion.

Blessings

 
 
  
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  From:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   7/31/2002 3:33 pm  
To:  LINDSAYGRIFF unread  (25 of 31)  
 
  408.25 in reply to 408.4  
 
Can you tell me where this is written in the Bible?  Is it old testament law, or new testament?

Thanks


  
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  From:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   7/31/2002 3:40 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (26 of 31)  
 
  408.26 in reply to 408.5  
 
Very well written David ... thank you so much.  

Let me share a heart breaker of my own.  Last year in September, just a few days before the life changing events of the attack on New York my son's girlfriend was forced to have an abortion.  I use the term forced because that's exactly what happened.  Her mother came to me and asked what to do, I told her that the child was welcome to live here until the baby was born, and I would raise the baby until the girl and my son were ready to be parents if ever.  I'm not a huge supporter either way - pro choice, or pro life - I'll leave that for another discussion.  

My son was brought up in a Christian home, he used to say how he woud NEVER have sex outside of marriage, wouldn't do drugs, etc., well, the apple fell very far from the Mother tree and closer to the Father tree ... he has lived with this girl and her family for a year and a half.  Regardless of the facts, my son stood his ground and did NOT want the girl to abort.  He went so far as to attempt suicide in hopes of saving that unborn childs life.  It didn't work - because the girl was a minor all the mother had to do was get a court order - they went to Kaiser, my son in tow - and all watched that life sucked out of her.  

Since that time she's had three other abortions.  10 months and four abortions.  It still breaks my heart and I've asked that they not tell me if it were to happen again.  I know that some day that girl is going to be a woman and mourn the loss of her four children.


 


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  From:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   7/31/2002 3:47 pm  
To:  123four   (27 of 31)  
 
  408.27 in reply to 408.14  
 
<<This elderly couple of this girl I was talking about in the former post were too old to be raising children >>

Imagine what Jack Nicholson, Warren Beatty, Susan Sarandon, Ann Benning, and my very own Mother must be going through ... so much suffering??? Not likely - my Mom is 60ish and raising HER OWN 13 year old child.  She is wobbling around on a cane, takes a lot of medications, and is a parent - her choice, no one elses.  What about those actors and actresses and their spouses?  They're all over sixty or close to it - some have JUST had children, heck look at old Larry King ... my own cousin was born to his parents well in to their 50's ... his Dad was pushing 60 at conception.  Not all elderly couples find it a burden to care for children; their own or someone elses.  

I'm not being rude, just showing the flip side of the coin.

 


 
  
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  From:  123four   7/31/2002 3:56 pm  
To:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   (28 of 31)  
 
  408.28 in reply to 408.27  
 
Some people are in better health than others are in their 60s and 70s. Some do not live to raise their children. 
I was talking about those who were unable physically as well as those who did not want to take on the 20 year raise your grandchildren plan. 

If anyone can do it , I say more power to them. Those grandparents who can but don['t want to don't generally make very good parents and the child will pay dearly for this...even tho it isn't the child's fault. 

Yes, there are many issues involved when the elderly take their grandchildren. Those who have plenty of money for household help,etc. 
will certainly fair easier in that respect, I agree with you. 

Wow, I didn't realize Susan Sarandon was in her 60s when she bore a child. That's amazing in and of itself. 



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Edited 7/31/2002 6:58:48 PM ET by 123four 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/31/2002 4:21 pm  
To:  ALL   (29 of 31)  
 
  408.29 in reply to 408.1  
 
Hi,

 

One of the main reasons that I posted this article is because I thought it would be interesting to discuss if Convience should be our highest Ideal. After all abortion is really only used as a means of convience.

 

Sure it might not always be convenient to commit to bringing a child into the world but it defiantly has to be rewarding.

 

So far this topic has revealed a lot of speculation and fear about the unknown.

 

One thing that we can be certain about is that God is the giver of life and that He is capable of overseeing the life that He brings forth.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   7/31/2002 9:58 pm  
To:  123four   (30 of 31)  
 
  408.30 in reply to 408.28  
 
Hi,
I don't think Susan Sarandon was in her sixties when she gave birth, but I believe she's around that age now; isn't she?  

I give high respect to ANY family member who takes on raising someone's child.  My belief is that is what family is for - to help raise one another, to love and nurture; it is something which has been lost in this world.

Blessings


 
  
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   From:  123four   7/31/2002 10:25 pm  
To:  (LilSheeba) (LF980727807)   (31 of 31)  
 
  408.31 in reply to 408.30  
 
I guess the thing I keep up least (or one of them) are the ages 
of movie stars. lol lol I will say this for S. Saranden-that she is a very nice looking sixty something lady, huh? 
I really don't know the ages of when movie stars start their families. 
That's not what I was talking about. 

I guess I need to go back and find the first and second posts I made. 
As I recall, I was talking about a particular family and the things we have to look at when parents can take on newborns in their sixties and seventies. 

I took 2 myself and raised them as my own, but I was in my thirties when I took them into my family. So my story was a lot different than a man who was working 2 jobs when he was seventy. So, yes there is a lot to think about and is the choice of the grandparents only as to whether they want to start a new family. 

 
  
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